Part 3, talking to Zebedeus. Koen Akkers asking questions.
Zebedeus, it’s an honour to be in your presence. A couple of questions that are on our minds. One of the first questions I’d like to ask you is: are you the same person as the person being described in the Bible? As being the father of John and James, who were followers of Jesus and who were said to be fishermen? And who Jesus gave the surname ‘suns of thunder’? Are you the father of John and James?
Zebedeus : Yes. Yes I am the father of John and James. Hmm, the sons of thunder… So by that they mean me.’
Perhaps.
‘Which is not surprising, because I was quite an intense person in my life. I was not a very easy type of guy, as you would say now. I could be very easily enraged, as more people of my tribe would be the same. So, yeah, the thunder is there.’
But I understood you were also a priest?
‘Yes. Yes, I was a priest. In the village I lived, I was part of a group of people who were very busy with spirituality. In our time many people of our tribe were busy with spirituality, because it was a very common thing in our days to combine the world of spirit with the daily life. So things were not so apart from each other. In this way, it wasn’t very strange if a priest was also a fisherman for instance, or a baker, because in our daily life we tried to practise our spiritual values. These were not as separated as in your society, where a priest is only a priest and doesn’t have anything to do with a baker for instance. In our tradition it was supposed to be very good to combine the two. So you had an earthly understanding of spirit and a spiritual understanding of earthly life. This was part of our tradition that we used both in say a good way of living. That was what we were trying to do, actually.’
Could anybody become a priest than, in your community?
‘No, not really. There was a specific training for priests. If you would become a Zadok, it meant you had to have a long training, which was quite severe, actually. It meant a lot of perseverance and restraint. So I followed my tradition, I followed my training in Qumran with the Essenes. That’s where I was trained. It wasn’t so far from my own village. I knew the group of Essenes very well. They had a very strict and long training. Sometimes… most of the training was for themselves. So they had their own community. But there were also trainings for people from the villages, and so I became a Zadok, because I was interested in their philosophy and their knowledge.
They were very wise men, very well learned. A bit stoic… how you do say, a bit austere. They were very austere, actually. That wasn’t really my thing. I liked life. I loved life. So I was interested in their way of life and their theory. I learned a lot from them and I visited them regularly. That’s how my sons came to be interested in their way of life and that’s how in the end they met Jesus. I prepared the way for my sons. But I was actually just a normal guy. I had some more knowledge, but I helped the people from my village to understand and to live a good life.’
How did the other people in your nation regard you? Did they regard you as a Jew, as a good Jew, or as a heretic?
‘No, I was regarded as a prominent Jew, as you could say, because I was quite well to do, for the standards in that time. Not very rich, but quite well. But in our time there were many different spiritual traditions. You had of course the Pharisees, they were more located in Jeruzalem, and they were kind of an upper class religious sect, you could say. They became more and more the focus, the rule, the rulers of the tradition and all the other groups became more the sects. But basically there were many different spiritual traditions, which were living closely together. Of course you had some rivalry, but mainly it was of a coexisting nature.’
Right. Was Jesus part of the community of Qumran?
‘Yes, he got his training, starting from a very young age, from about seven years old. His training started in the Essene community, while he sometimes went back to his parents. His parents were well trained also. Especially his mother was very highly initiated in the Qumran community. So it wasn’t very strange for him to become part of it and to learn the ways of the Essenes.’
Was he a member of a royal family? As according to the Bible he was descendant of King David?
‘Yes, he was. Which is not such a very strange thing, because there were many descendants from King David. Because he lived so many generations before Jesus, he had many descendants of course. So Jesus was one of them. So you could say he was from the royal lineage of King David. But actually in our time that wasn’t considered very important anymore. Somehow we had lost that tradition. We had lost our spiritual lineage of the royal leadership. So it was time, actually… we were looking for a spiritual leader that could take on both political leadership and spiritual leadership. There was a lot of talk about the return of the Messiah. They were hoping for one to bring back harmony again, because we knew that the Roman Empire that was overruling us, was teaching us a lesson. That we had to stand up and take our own power again. Because we had forgotten to do that, we were overruled by another nation that didn’t live according to the gods – as we would live according to the Gods, actually. They had the wrong gods, but it seamed they had forgotten their gods also for a long time. Because the way they treated their gods was more like a social entertainment. As you see in your time is happening very much, that religion is becoming social entertainment instead of a true spiritual practise.
The Jewish people were always very true to that deep core belief of spirit in human life. I think that is our main quality actually, that we recognise the superb nature of spirituality. We can talk about it and discuss about it and we bring it into practise. That’s why the Jewish people always have been connected to their God. Because it was so strong in our genes.
So, Jesus is a descendant of King David and yes, we were hoping he would become the spiritual leader of our people, which he didn’t.’
He didn’t become that spiritual leader?
‘In a way he became, but he became the spiritual leader for everyone, and that was what we hadn’t expected. Of course we wanted him to stand up against the Romans, and he didn’t do that, which was a big disappointment for many people. We had hoped that some revolution would brake out, would come and destroy the Romans. Which maybe isn’t a very spiritual concept, but you must understand we were under pressure, we were suppressed by another nation, and it was quite a brutal suppression. So we were looking for freedom – and of course we were looking for a leader to bring us that freedom. All we didn’t know was that Jesus was talking about another freedom, which was larger than we could have ever imagined.’
So Jesus didn’t decline being a leader?
‘There was a big question. There was a lot of talk about it that he would become a leader and people wanted him to be a leader, because they saw his power. They saw the influence he had on many people. But he declined leadership and that was quite frustrating. That’s why some people turned against him in the end.’
This is perhaps a more trivial question, but people in our time find it important: did he actually sire any children?
‘It is so interesting that it is such a big question in your time. Because in our time, in our tradition, it was very natural to have children – like I had children, being a priest. There was no division between a sexual life and a priestly life. It could very well be combined. Except for some of the Essene communities, where it was very strict… a celibatary life. But Jesus was brought up within the Essene community, so he knew about his role of being a priest and that was his main role. But yes, he had contact with women and he had children. He had a family. But it wasn’t very in the publicity, you could say. But it was part of his life, yes.’
Was his wife Mary Magdalene?
‘Yes.’
Does he have descendants that live in our time?
‘Yes. And the funny thing is you couldn’t imagine how many descendants. Thousands. Because if you calculate, after so many generations, there are many, many, many descendants. Like Jesus was one of the many of thousands descendants of King David.
So, basically, these things are not so strange, or so unique as they seem. But because of the whole story that has been told about Jesus, for you in your time it might sound like a very special revelation, but it wasn’t really that, you know. You could also say: did Jesus really go to the toilet these days? Yes, he did go to the toilet these days, which is a very normal thing too. So it’s kind of similar to that kind of question, do you understand that?’
I do understand that.
‘So what’s the big issue? Of course I understand it is a big issue, because the church as it became – like the Roman church has made it – created this. As they took out this whole earthly life – that we are talking about – they made priesthood into a very special sect, above the normal people, and thus they created a big division, a big duality, between God and earthly life. They associated themselves with the power of God – and that God could rule on earth and stood above the people. But in the Judean tradition the God was always between the people. We were living God. He was with us. He was walking with us. He was talking to us. So it was much more an integrated religion than a dualistic religion.’
One reason I ask this, is that during the last session you mentioned that human DNA carries information. Information that we have no knowledge of?
‘ Yes.’
Apparantly. Could it be that the DNA of Jesus is more special than other people’s DNA? Is there more information in Jesus’ DNA?
‘That’s a very good question, because it is true. You can in a way unlock your DNA by your own consciousness. The more you become aware of who you are, the more use you can make of your whole DNA potential. There’s a whole potential, but some people have only opened a little part of it. And some people have, by their consciousness, been able to really use more of their DNA and open it up. So they have a heightened consciousness, you could say heightened energy. The energy field becomes larger. Jesus was quite far in this; he had developed a very high field of consciousness. He was very much in contact with the angel guides that were guiding him in his life.
So what happened was that – and this was called a transfiguration – a part of his whole DNA has become transformed into a higher state of being. This higher state of being you could call love, or supreme wisdom, or the God Principal. This didn’t only create a field, a field of residence through time and space, but it also had impact on the DNA of the human species. Basically, in first instance, in his own children. And don’t forget the role of Mary Magdalene, who also vibrated with him to that higher consciousness. Because they always had to be together, otherwise they could loose the field. If one of them would break down, they would both break down. Only as co-creators you can move to a higher level. That’s why the connection, the combination of man and woman is so important. So his children contained indeed information of higher consciousness, that were stored in their genes. That got also lost during the generations, but basically he created a ripple through time. In his own family, in his own genes, but also in the whole collective field of the higher consciousness of love and forgiveness. Through his work you are able today to unlock those same values, to unlock the same DNA potential codes, you could say, to become more connected to the divine.
So this was his work and that’s why he became such an important figure in history. Of course human nature has tried to bring him down, strangely enough by raising him to the divine state. He was just a normal guy, being very enlightened. Not the other way around. Of course that is a way to distort history; to say he was a very special guy, who came to help normal people, which keeps the normal people ‘normal’. Instead of saying he was a normal guy who just developed himself into a higher consciousness, and that means everybody can do it. Everybody can follow him in his footsteps. So he was an example.’
To come back to the subject of DNA, do I understand correctly that he activated more of our DNA than other people would?
‘Yes. Yes.’
But now we found out that the DNA of humans to a very high extend resembles the DNA of other animals, like pigs. 95 or 99 percent of the DNA of pigs is the same as that of humans. How do you explain that? Does that mean that pigs can reach the same state of spiritual awareness as humans can?
‘Well, it means you’re not so very far away from pigs, which is in a way true. Human beings think they are way above the animal world, but the animal world is in potential closer to human beings than they think. Although animals don’t have an intellect as human beings know it, they can be indeed enlightened. They can have a higher consciousness. And being very aware of their situation, of course they can’t talk about it, but they can communicate it. They can spread around this awareness, like many animals do actually. Animals have a very high consciousness, which is most of the time underestimated. There are even animals who have a higher consciousness than human beings – and then we’re talking about the species of the dolphins and the whales, who have a very high understanding of the spirit in nature. But they communicate of course on a completely different level and in a different way.
The other way around: if you look at the level of development of human beings, we’re only say halfway. There’s so much more still – and I can see that from the point of view I am at the moment, where I am guided by many angels, as you would call them, or many higher beings, that show me that there’s such a long way still to go. Which is very interesting, because the more you come in contact with the higher levels of being, the more beauty, the more love, the more wisdom is just vibrating through you, through your essence. So it’s a joyful way, it’s a beautiful way. It’s like a butterfly coming out of the caterpillar, and you could say that Jesus was a butterfly. He could fly in his lightbody. He was already evolved. But the rest of society wasn’t at that time. In your time too, many people are on the edge of becoming butterflies, because they have opened up to this higher consciousness.’
Can you explain this ripple effect that he apparently had? Would you say that it is easier for us now to reach an enlightened state because of the awareness of Jesus then?
‘Yes, that was exactly his purpose. He wanted to give an example, make a first step, so it would become easier for others to see and find the path. By becoming a living example, he cleared a road. Now for you it is much easier to connect to the Christ consciousness. You could say that Christ is the butterfly and Jesus was the man, was the caterpillar. So Christ came out of Jesus. He became the Christ and that is exactly the process that you are experiencing in these days: that many people are moving towards the Christ consciousness and leaving the caterpillar state. Which means that we are in a lot of chaos, because the transformation of the caterpillar takes a lot of energy and a lot of chaos, and darkness for the light to emerge.’
It has been written that Jesus died on a cross. Were you there when this happened?
‘No, I wasn’t. I wasn’t.’
What do you know about that?
‘I heard it from the stories in my life at that time. But I knew there was going to be trouble and I didn’t like to go to Jerusalem. It was the city of the Pharisees, it was the city of problems, of power, of Romans – basically many Romans and many priests – and I wasn’t very much in favour of that. I liked the simple life. I liked my own village and the people around me. But my sons were there and of course from them I heard the stories and the disaster of that night, when he was betrayed, in a way, and hung on the cross. It happened to many people in our time, that they were crucified, and of course it was a big disillusion, because we esteemed him so high. So it was quite painful for us to experience it and many people from our tribe couldn’t believe, so lost their hope.’
According to Christian doctrine Jesus actually ‘planned’ his death. His goal was to die, to be betrayed and than be killed, for some reason. But are you saying it was more of an accident?
‘Well, looking from a higher perspective, everything had its purpose, so also his death. Maybe that’s the best you can say about it. But there’s also… okay, I’m a simple man maybe, but I look at it from a simple viewpoint and that is that he would just be betrayed by our enemies and hung at the cross. So that’s a truth you can put next to it, because this betraying has been happening over time and time and time again. Over the years the Jewish people have always been betrayed and hung on the cross. It happened all the time. Because we were so much in connection with this deep spirit, and the people from the European countries didn’t like our spirit, our fire. So they hung us on the cross. And we were… of course we were rebellious against the Roman suppression.
So we saw that they didn’t acknowledge their own gods, that they abused their own religion. We saw that they were looking more and more for material things, for sexual things, for earthly delights, instead of combining it with spirit. So we were not too happy about them. And that they crucified many of our people, we were not happy about that either. You could say that maybe in the end everything has a purpose, but still it was a dark page in our history, and it is important not to overrule this way of looking by a too high spiritual way of looking. Especially when you are part of the stressors – if you understand what I’m saying.’
I’m afraid not.
‘Okay, I will explain it to you. As a Roman, or later as a Christian, it was very easy to say this was meant to happen, because you were part of the suppressors. It’s the same as white people saying about black people: it’s okay that they are poor or that they are slaves, because it’s part of their destiny to be slaves. Who are you to say that? You understand what I am saying?’
I understand.
‘It’s a very easy thing to say from one point of view. But let’s be honest, of course some things are not okay and it’s good to acknowledge that, before you go into a higher perspective, saying that everything of course has its purpose. It’s a very tricky thing to do that too easily.’
Who betrayed Jesus actually? Because he was hung on a cross by the Romans, but according to the biblical accounts the Pharisees also played a role in it?
‘It was a very chaotic time and of course the Zealots wanted to have their political leader, who would stand up against the Romans. Judas was part of the Zealots. So he was very much influenced by them. In that way he betrayed Jesus, because he didn’t really understand the deeper purpose of his life. And he represented that. But he also represented his own ‘not understanding’ at that moment. Later on he understood that also his act was part of the divine purpose – and still he also betrayed Jesus. So you can always make a distinction between a personal intention and the soul intention; on the personal level there was betrayal, on the soul level it was all part of the greater plan.
The Pharisees tried to keep power by working together with the Romans. They could not become more rebellious, so they disliked every rebellion or anarchy, because that would bring them in a bad position. So they were just trying to keep not too rocked about it, basically. We didn’t like them. We didn’t like the Pharisees, they were very…’
Opportunistic? They were cowards?
‘Yes, cowards. So there you have the whole situation. And then you have this guy Jesus – who was very pure and who had a very high intention – within this field of opposing forces, and he became the focal point for everything that happened.’
There’s another biblical account, saying that when Jesus died the veil in the temple that hung in front of the Holy of Holies was ripped from top to bottom. Is that a metaphorical account or did it really happen? Because if it really happened, it was very significant, as it would allow you to view the inside the Holy of Holies.
‘I have heard the same question and the same story in my life, and of course it has a highly symbolic value that something of the essence… of the true essence of life became visible. But as I understood, it also happened physically and some people knew that there were things hidden in the Holy of Holies that were important and that had to be protected. So finally we could get a glimpse of what was always kept away by the Pharisees. By this we understood that there was something very important that we kept as a treasure in our people – and that was very important, because it gave us back our pride. We knew we were the guardians of a very ancient treasure, and the priest had protected it only to make their own role more powerful. They had become a sect in their own, and they were the only ones that would be able to handle these old treasures. But somehow we realized as a people that this was the real essence of the Judean people and it brought us back our strength.’
So that happened on the same night that Jesus died?
‘Yes.’
And how did it happen? How could it happen? Because I suppose the temple was well guarded.
‘I only heard the stories, but what I heard was that at that moment there was a dark storm and some kind of earthquake. It was really dark and it was very powerful weather. And somehow… some people went inside, because the Pharisees were not all there. Most of them were looking at what happened with Jesus and with the Romans, and some people went inside the temple.’
So the execution of Jesus was a diversion, in a sense?
‘You could say that. There were some people who wanted to know what was inside and they took away the veil.’
They were Zealots?
‘I think so. These people have been quite shocked, because in seeing the treasure, they suddenly understood that their way of political warfare, their anarchistic behaviour, was so unworthy of who we were. They suddenly understood the true value of Jesus’ teachings.
So the people who had seen the treasure in the ark, actually were completely transformed and shocked by the things they had seen. They had a sudden understanding of the true developments happening in our time.’
So they saw the ark and they opened it?
‘The stones were outside at that time. They were displayed on the altar, on the place around the ark. They saw the stones of Moses, but most of all they felt the power of it. They felt the spiritual power of the stones and they understood that it had an incredible value for the whole world actually, and that you couldn’t defend that spiritual power by fighting, only by developing yourself, by bringing love and forgiveness, you could really rule the world in the end. This has influenced these people so much that in the end they understood that the treasures that were displayed in the Holy of Holies had to be protected and had to be guided and safeguarded somewhere. But this happened later on. Before the temple was destroyed, there were many discussion about how to place all the stones under protection. Much had been saved actually, before the destruction of the temple. But the ark had been placed inside the Holy of Holies, it just stayed there.’
So the Zealots, who after opening the veil discovered the ark and the stones around it, left it all in place?
‘At that time they left it in place, yes. But they understood the spiritual value of it and later on they came back to bring it to a safer place.’
And what they had found, they communicated to the rest of the people?
‘Yes, they went back to the communities in Qumran and in Massada and they discussed what had to be done. So you could imagine there was a big awareness in our time. Everybody learned, everybody changed in big steps. Many Zealots, after the death of Jesus, became very mild actually and they changed their political behaviour, although some became more radical, and others became more spiritual.
I think we have to come to the last question.’
Okay. In the last session one of the last things you said, was: ‘bring back the stones in the circle, the twelve stones’.What’s going to happen if we do, and what’s going to happen if we don’t? What’s the significance of bringing the stones back in the circle?
‘First of all the stones represented part of the DNA of the human body. They had information that could unlock codes of the DNA, and if they would be placed together, the unlocking of the human DNA would be complete. You could see them as some sort of instruments or tools for spiritual awakening. When the stones were taken away, they were also spread around. Some were abused, some were placed in other cultures, so everything became spread out and you could actually say that the whole human nature became very spread out. The consciousness of people went down, actually.
So, it is important that these stones can be brought back. Because physically, or symbolically, you bring back all the information of the DNA codes. By placing it in the circle, you make the Christ code complete. Since Jerusalem used to be a place where the Christ code was encoded in the earth, it still is a very powerful place to bring back all those separate parts of the code.
That is actually one of the challenges for your time, to bring back what has been lost, what has been dispersed all over the world, and to unite it in a land that is now so torn by conflict and war, by opposites. You need that code of love and forgiveness again to bring balance in the world.
And again it’s important to say: this sounds – and it is – a very spiritual and divine concept, but it is also a very human, normal, earthly concept. I want to stress that, because otherwise it becomes too much of a magical thing, while it is a very normal thing. As we looked upon it: it was just life.’
Thank you very much.
(23/08/2007)
